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 Post subject: Re: Laptops
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:12 am 
supreme adder
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laifuthegreat wrote:
Basically it means high middle range components in terms of components.


Is there a point to this, though?

What do you do with it that you couldn't do with Intel integrated graphics?

They never seem to be good enough to play any games and then it's extra weight and less battery life.


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 Post subject: Re: Laptops
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:03 am 
cacodemon

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theadder wrote:
What do you do with it that you couldn't do with Intel integrated graphics?


Wait, shouldn't I be looking at discrete graphics?

http://www.ibuypower.com/Store/Holiday-Paladin-Dr-I

I think this looks good. What things would you guys customize? I was thinking of making the primary hard drive solid state and getting a 2TB data hard drive. Should I stick with the onboard audio or upgrade the sound card? Also, while I guess it isn't necessary, having 16GB of RAM wouldn't hurt.


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 Post subject: Re: Laptops
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:14 am 
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MijukuDesu wrote:
theadder wrote:
What do you do with it that you couldn't do with Intel integrated graphics?


Wait, shouldn't I be looking at discrete graphics?

http://www.ibuypower.com/Store/Holiday-Paladin-Dr-I

I think this looks good. What things would you guys customize? I was thinking of making the primary hard drive solid state and getting a 2TB data hard drive. Should I stick with the onboard audio or upgrade the sound card? Also, while I guess it isn't necessary, having 16GB of RAM wouldn't hurt.

You probably don't need to upgrade the sound card; I'm under the impression that sound processing technology reached a plateau long ago, though I may be wrong. If you're looking at a desktop, definitely go for discrete graphics. In a laptop, integrated graphics are lighter, generate less heat and sound, and drain less battery.

I can play most modern games on at least medium settings with a consistent framerate, whereas with integrated graphics I'd be limited to low with a choppy, variable one.


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 Post subject: Re: Laptops
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:39 am 
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MijukuDesu wrote:
Wait, shouldn't I be looking at discrete graphics?

http://www.ibuypower.com/Store/Holiday-Paladin-Dr-I

I think this looks good. What things would you guys customize? I was thinking of making the primary hard drive solid state and getting a 2TB data hard drive. Should I stick with the onboard audio or upgrade the sound card? Also, while I guess it isn't necessary, having 16GB of RAM wouldn't hurt.


I was suggesting integrated graphics for laptops.

I suggest building the PC, rather than buying from them. These companies tend to provide bad cooling, amongst other things.

The original justification for a sound card was offloading the processing from the CPU. This doesn't occur now and it is done on the CPU even with a sound card. The benefit now is the sound quality.


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 Post subject: Re: Laptops
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:09 am 
cacodemon

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Okay, I'm close to a deal here. I'm wondering if I can run an nVidia graphics card meant for PCIe 3.0 on an X79 motherboard. I read that it doesn't officially support 3.0, but the specs say, "All PCI Express x16 slots conform to PCI Express 3.0 standard." Okay, but why the contradictory information? Should I use a different board?

My guess is that maybe you can enable 3.0, though the board wasn't meant for it. That's what I gather from it not being "officially" supported.


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 Post subject: Re: Laptops
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:32 am 
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Whether it is 2.0 or 3.0 is physically built into the motherboard and the GPU. There's no way to change it.

Any card should work in any slot. It will use whatever bandwidth is available to it.

A 3.0 device doesn't preclude connecting it to a 2.0 motherboard.


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 Post subject: Re: Laptops
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:20 am 
cacodemon

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Excellent! Thanks for all of your help, theadder. You've saved me from really bad purchase decisions!

Here's the final specifications:

CD: 24X Double Layer Dual Format DVD+-R/+-RW + CD-R/RW Drive
CPU: Intel® Core™ i7-4820K Quad-Core 3.70 GHz 10MB Intel Smart Cache LGA2011
HDD: 128GB Corsair Force GS Series SATA-III 6.0Gb/s SSD - 560MB/s Read & 535MB/s Write
HDD2: 1TB Western Digital Caviar Black SATA-III 6.0Gb/s 7200 RPM HDD
MEMORY: 16GB (4GBx4) DDR3/1600MHz Quad Channel Memory
MOTHERBOARD: GIGABYTE X79-UP4 ATX w/ Ultra Durable 5, GblAN, 4 GEn3 PCIe x16, 2 PCIe x1, 1 PCI
POWERSUPPLY: 800 Watts - Standard 80 Plus Certified Power Supply - SLI/CrossFireX Ready
VIDEO: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780 3GB GDDR5 16X PCIe 3.0 Video Card

I had to make sacrifices to things I really wanted, such as a 2TB HDD, but I wanted to cut down on costs. These aren't all the features I bought, just the ones I thought were the most interesting to mention. The final cost was $1,657.75, which wasn't bad considering what I'm getting. PCs are long-term investments, so I was willing to pay for all of this.

theadder, while I respect your advice, I decided to have my PC custom-built on a web site for the following reasons:

1. OEMs have the numbers of all the major companies, and when a problem arises they get plenty of attention. I could never get that from these companies.

2. If I build a PC myself, I won't be buying in bulk and saving on costs. I got $150 off on the GTX 780 because they're purchased in large shipments, which is significant.

3. I don't have as much experience as OEMs. They have engineers who know what they're doing.

4. OEMs are far more likely to get the truth on things from parts manufacturers. While companies may lie about problems or ignore them when something goes wrong to the public, they are usually more honest in warning OEMs when it comes to incorrectly mixing components, and then make them sign non-disclosure agreements.

If I have any heat problems, then I have some solutions I'm considering. Hopefully I won't have them. Last thing I'll ask is whether I should use my SSD for anything other that boot and OS files.


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 Post subject: Re: Laptops
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:46 pm 
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You've bought Ivy Bridge-E there, which is a little bit odd. This is a massive almost server-like CPU. The thing has a 10MB cache! You could easily drop down to the i5-4670 and that would be much better. You're also buying a $250 motherboard, which is totally unnecessary!

This is what has forced you to cut the spending on the hard disk and other items. I suggest making some of these changes.

I'm not going to press you on building it versus buying it from an OEM, but most of the things on the list are wrong. It's notable that you'll get better service from the manufacturers of the individual components than you ever will from a big company like Dell.

As I mentioned before, the companies like the one you're ordering from now will sell you unfortunate combinations of things that aren't appropriate. It's a bit odd that they're selling you Ivy Bridge-E at all, for example. You've also got an 800 watt power supply in there, which just makes no sense at all. This is all the type of weird stuff they're known for doing to customers; they wildly oversell some components beyond what the customer needs and other things are sorely lacking. A good example of this is the hard disk price cut you've made; the 1TB models aren't even current now. When I search Newegg the 1TB models through third parties have the same prices as 2TB, because the manufacturers have long since discontinued 1TB models and all that remains is old inventory!

Briefly:

1. I'm not quite sure what this means, but I'm going to assume that it refers to support if the devices fail. They will do this and especially if you're in the USA most places will cross ship components to you free. You can send them the broken item after the new one arrives. Dell or wherever else doesn't much care if your PC fails and the turnaround times for support can be very long. The good component manufacturers are very concerned about their reputations and will look after you. All you have to do is pick properly, which is easy; this means Intel, EVGA, etc.

2. It's true that the OEMs are buying components in bulk and getting special deals of a sort. They keep this money as profits, however. They're also infamous for ordering special less powerful SKUs from the manufacturers to put only in their own listings; cf Dell etc. I'm not sure how you can be aware that you got '$150 off' the GTX 780. This is very unlikely though; much more likely is that the extra fee to move from whatever model is initially listed to the GTX 780 is $150 less than the list price for a GTX 780. A substantial GPU cost was already listed in the machine at the start! You've likely overpaid by quite an amount.

3. Dell doesn't much care if your PC works or not. There will be long support times if anything fails. The people building the hardware are the ones who actually know what they're doing. This is Intel, Nvidia, Corsair, etc. This doesn't have much relevance for the company making your PC. Their equivalent of 'knowing what they're doing' is putting shoddy cheap parts in a case.

4. No.

What are your solutions to the heat problems?

The SSD can be used for games and so on. It's not likely to have much free space though after the OS, since you have a 128GB variant. Definitely put the OS on it though. I'd suggest buying a larger one if at all possible.

Note: for 'Dell' read any custom PC manufacturer.


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 Post subject: Re: Laptops
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:23 pm 
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Your points have been noted. Live and learn. The reason why some of these parts are more powerful than they should be is that cheaper variants weren't offered! I'm aware of some of the features being insufficient, but at least I can swap some parts at a later time. I just wanted to get the stuff I needed at a "low" cost and then invest more heavily later in better storage space. I've also noted that these companies charge way too much for RAM. Up to 8GB it might be reasonable, but add another 8GB you'll be charged an extra $175 from companies such as Dell. Shopping around, you might get that RAM for around $65.

I've also noticed that the motherboard I'm getting is overkill. It is capable of SLI for 4 cards, but I'll never run more than one video card. But there were no cheaper alternatives. In fact, a board meant to run only one video card was the same price!

I know that the SSD can be used for anything, but I'm only concerned with running OS and boot files off of it. 1TB for a secondary drive is low, but I also have an external HDD with the same capacity. I should be fine for awhile.

My solutions to heat problems are pretty rudimentary. I was thinking of upgrading fans, coolant, and also trying to rewire things for a better airflow. Hopefully, I won't run into any heat issues.

I made a point in not buying a monitor or speakers from these guys. I could definitely get better prices elsewhere.

theadder wrote:
I'm not sure how you can be aware that you got '$150 off' the GTX 780. This is very unlikely though; much more likely is that the extra fee to move from whatever model is initially listed to the GTX 780 is $150 less than the list price for a GTX 780. A substantial GPU cost was already listed in the machine at the start! You've likely overpaid by quite an amount.


That is most likely the case. This card was not sold on its own at a discounted $150 price point. You think the card is less powerful than one buying straight from the manufacturer?


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 Post subject: Re: Laptops
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:48 pm 
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MijukuDesu wrote:
Your points have been noted. Live and learn. The reason why some of these parts are more powerful than they should be is that cheaper variants weren't offered! I'm aware of some of the features being insufficient, but at least I can swap some parts at a later time. I just wanted to get the stuff I needed at a "low" cost and then invest more heavily later in better storage space. I've also noted that these companies charge way too much for RAM. Up to 8GB it might be reasonable, but add another 8GB you'll be charged an extra $175 from companies such as Dell. Shopping around, you might get that RAM for around $65.

I've also noticed that the motherboard I'm getting is overkill. It is capable of SLI for 4 cards, but I'll never run more than one video card. But there were no cheaper alternatives. In fact, a board meant to run only one video card was the same price!

I know that the SSD can be used for anything, but I'm only concerned with running OS and boot files off of it. 1TB for a secondary drive is low, but I also have an external HDD with the same capacity. I should be fine for awhile.

My solutions to heat problems are pretty rudimentary. I was thinking of upgrading fans, coolant, and also trying to rewire things for a better airflow. Hopefully, I won't run into any heat issues.

I made a point in not buying a monitor or speakers from these guys. I could definitely get better prices elsewhere.

That is most likely the case. This card was not sold on its own at a discounted $150 price point. You think the card is less powerful than one buying straight from the manufacturer?


The RAM issue isn't that simple. Since there are a given number of slots, you can be paying for the density of the RAM. It's disproportionately more expensive to put a greater capacity in one stick than it is to divide it amongst two. Even though it appears that more materials are used in the making of two, that isn't how the price is calculated.

It has slots for 4 cards because it's virtually a Xeon server board. There weren't any alternatives because they want to oversell you things.

What's the SSD question then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison ... 600_Series shows the 600 series as an example. In the rightmost column the ones labelled OEM are available only to the OEMs. Notice that they're all bad. In the 700 series, look particularly at the "GTX 760 192-bit version." It's a severely disabled normal GTX 760. If the form is up to date, this doesn't seem to have happened for the 780. They just overcharged you for it instead.


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