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 Post subject: Re: Monitors
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:46 am 
supreme adder
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 Post subject: Re: Monitors
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:45 am 
Audrey Horne
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Your recommendation of IPS is debatable, too, imo. I cared to exlain why, though.

It is a well known fact that TN is for the most part quicker and IPS more beautiful. While a TN needs up to 2 ms, an IPS can need up to 5-8ms. Just googling TN vs. IPS gives me countless results of either photographer/industrial designer forums and articles (2012 articles, not 1999, duh) about the preferences of both. They *all* agree, especially in the price range we're talking about.

I also know a photographer and some other guy who's an industrial designer (student), which is the reason I've looked for websites for those people specifically, who have changed to an IPS because they were not satisfied with TN and heard that IPS offers a more "realistic" picture with more genuine colours. It is also a great advantage that no shifting head or tilting monitor changes the brightness or colours of the screen. Industrial designers have to work very precisely and have to be able to trust their monitor. IPS offers that. Mos def. If you're questioning that, you've never seen a photographer or designer at work.

Also, *usually*, IPS *does* need more power. If you line up 50 TN and IPS monitors of the same price range, the IPS monitors will require averagely about, say, 30 Watt, while TN about 20 Watt. I am not sure if those are exactly true, but that's the magnitude we're talking about. The fact that IPS usually needs more power is also quite established, imho.

I absolutely stand by my statement: Recommending a cheap IPS is not a good recommendation for a gamer per se. Maybe Lyra should recommend exactly his, because he seemed to get lucky (or he doesn't mind schlieren, I can't say). Jozoz, imo, don't buy an IPS blindly if you want to game.

I know how much theadder wants my German articles: In the wiki (yes), there is an extra column about motion blur:

Bewegungsunschärfe
Bei Hold-Type-Displays wie LCD und OLED-Bildschirmen bleibt der Zustand eines Pixels für die Dauer einer Bildperiode bestehen, bis die angelegte Spannung im Zuge des Bildaufbaus eines neuen Bildes geändert wird (Erhaltungsdarstellung). Da das Auge bei der Verfolgung eines bewegten Bildinhalts (englisch smooth pursuit eye tracking) die „Helligkeit“ über eine Bildperiode integriert, während der Bildinhalt aber fixiert bleibt, kommt es zum Verwischen des Bildes auf der Netzhaut des Betrachters. Dies fällt besonders bei der Darstellung schnell bewegter Szenen auf und wird deshalb auch als Bewegungsunschärfe (auch engl. motion blur) bezeichnet. Bei heutigen LCDs ist diese Bewegungsunschärfe schon erheblich reduziert. Die Reaktionszeit von „grau nach grau“ (engl. gray to gray) liegt durchschnittlich bei 6 ms. Es ist zu beachten, dass selbst bei verschwindend geringen Schaltzeiten, das heißt bei nahezu unendlich schnellem Schalten, wegen der Erhaltungsdarstellung die Bewegungsunschärfe nicht beseitigt wäre.

So it has been improved, but it's still quite slow compared to TN. I am not so familiar with the subtypes (H-ISP, E-ISP), maybe there is a good one, but generally recommending IPS is not sensible.

jozoz, do you care? Because I am doing this just for you, I don't care about this discussion.



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 Post subject: Re: Monitors
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:11 am 
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I love german :D



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 Post subject: Re: Monitors
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:46 am 
supreme adder
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My recommendation came before the budget, which probably isn't enough for a good TN monitor, let alone a good IPS one.

The fact that you're talking about the times for transitions in monitors and quoting manufacturer information for this suggests that you don't know what you're talking about. It's common knowledge that these figures are meaningless; they represent nothing but fiddling part of the ISO specification for LCD. The point for the manufacturers is to be able to provide ever smaller numbers. This is similar to the megapixel race and the megahertz myth, for example. Customers are stupid and will buy things that seem better based on terrible criteria; the fact that we're even talking about it suggests that it's worked!

Even if those figures were meaningful, which they aren't, this still isn't particularly useful. We can consider them regardless, though. 2ms is 1/500th of a second. 5ms is 1/200th of a second. Neither of us can perceive either of those, let alone the distinction between them. When we used CRT displays and the refresh rate had more meaning, since there was an actual process of 'refreshing' the screen, they generally operated at 60hz - 75hz and maybe up to 100hz or so. People aren't going to perceive a distinction of any kind between 2ms and 5ms. Again though, these numbers have no meaning because of what they measure. Even if they did have meaning, they are too small for humans to perceive.

It's obviously orders of magnitude off, but I can't help but be reminded of people who think that they can 'feel' the difference in RAM timings. The cycles that these are denoted are now in sub-nanosecond ranges.

Give me half-arsed medical information about the refresh rate of the eye and you'll receive "casein" as the reply!

Your power numbers are probably a bit low for both categories, but the difference is probably about right. It works out as follows:

10 watts * 10 hours per day * 365 days per year / 1000 for kilowatt hours * an absurd ~$0.35 US dollars/hour for electricity in Germany.

This is about $12/year and very slightly more than $1/month. Most people probably waste more leaving lights and appliances on when they're not in use. This isn't a meaningful amount.

Extra stuff:

bego wrote:
It is a well known fact that TN is for the most part quicker and IPS more beautiful. While a TN needs up to 2 ms, an IPS can need up to 5-8ms.


Do you know what they claim to measure and why it is bad?

bego wrote:
Just googling TN vs. IPS gives me countless results of either photographer/industrial designer forums and articles (2012 articles, not 1999, duh) about the preferences of both. They *all* agree, especially in the price range we're talking about.


From what you're saying, it seems that these forums and articles agree that there are differences in these times and that one is twice as large as the other. Is that it, or do you mean something else?


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 Post subject: Re: Monitors
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:05 am 
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Even if the bugdet is small, this is nice and informative hardware discussion. It will be useful in the future, so please dont give it up. Im actually learning shit here :D



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 Post subject: Re: Monitors
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:15 am 
supreme adder
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 Post subject: Re: Monitors
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:27 am 
hell knight
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Yes I do care and yes I am learning stuff here as well.

From what it seems the difference between IPS and TN is non noticeable (I agree with theadder here). I won't be able to tell a difference either way, and since I am not very smart on monitor hardware I might just go ahead and buy what seems good and is cheap. The BenQ one i mentioned earlier seems to fit that puporse and fits the budget.

My budget doesn't qualify for anything fancy at all, so I'll have to make some sacrifices.

The BenQ has a reaction 5ms and uses 22W.

It has a brightness of 250 cd/m2 (I dont know what this means)

It's full HD which of course means 1920x1080 pixels, which is 0.276 mm in distance between the pixels if thats useful at all.

It uses DVI, which it has to since I don't have a working VGA output.

Here is a link to the system specs: http://reviews.cnet.com/lcd-monitors/benq-gl2450/4507-3174_7-35619747.html

Thoughts? I think it seems great at that price.


Last edited by jozoz on Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Monitors
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:32 am 
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Maybe look into refurbished or second hand?



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 Post subject: Re: Monitors
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:35 am 
supreme adder
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My argument is that the pixel transition argument that Bego is making is not relevant in TYOOL 2013.

The visual properties argue heavily in favour of IPS over TN.

The only question is whether your budget extends as far as an IPS screen, which it seems that it does not.

Lura was able to buy one iirc for 200 euros or so on my recommendation. He seems entirely happy with it. If you aren't able to stretch that far then it is likely that you'll end up with a TN panel. You can still pick a good manufacturer, though.

Dell is known for the quality of their monitors. You might also consider Samsung. I'd get a Dell if possible. LG probably also. I do not recommend Asus or Acer.


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 Post subject: Re: Monitors
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:47 am 
hell knight
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I edited my earlier post with some specs (you guys reply way too fast), but yes I should look into other manufactorers as well. Maybe I can get a better deal.


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