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 Post subject: Re: Favorite books/authors?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:30 pm 
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overpoweredginger wrote:
I take it you don't may much attention to superhero shit? Two specific stories I had in my head while writing that post were Watchmen and The Dark Knight, neither of which were shabby at all, and besides your average superhero tale is a military operation or two away from being Hideo Kojima levels of ridiculousness. Also Unbreakable was a very good superhero film.

Unbreakable was very good but does it even classify as a super hero film? I thought the films of The Dark Knight and Watchmen were just decent. Nothing special.



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 Post subject: Re: Favorite books/authors?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:10 pm 
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I'd say Unbreakable classifies as a superhero film. There's a lot in there about fate and destiny but at the end of the day it's still about abnormal people making their impact on the world. I find Samuel L. Jackson's character to be one of the most interesting/best characters in a film. Shayamalan at his finest.

I was referring to the Watchmen graphic novel, as I haven't seen the film. Watchmen isn't my favoritest thing ever, but it's a pretty damn good deconstruction and subversion of the superhero genre. I recommend you read it, provided it's significantly different from the film (which I believe is the case).

As to TDK, I can see why you wouldn't like it but I find the themes and undertones in the movie to be undeniable. It really takes the idea of good vs. evil apart and goes to town with it. I recommend you watch Confused Matthew's review of the film if you want to, as it brought up a bunch of the undertones I missed and changed how I thought of the movie.



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 Post subject: Re: Favorite books/authors?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:27 pm 
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I suppose I can agree with you on Unbreakable. I thought Samuel L Jackson's character was great too.

The Watchmen film did have some great moments and I liked how it subverted the genre but it was bloated and had some stupid and unnecessary scenes.

I found The Dark Knight suffered by being overloaded by too many themes for its own good. It didn't deal with or address all its themes properly, much like Inception. I also don't think the film having two villains did it much favours. Two Face was introduced too late and his arc was too rushed. I feel that it would be better if the film was split into two parts and The Dark Knight Rises didn't exist at all. I may check out Confused Matthew's review.



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 Post subject: Re: Favorite books/authors?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:39 pm 
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Now that we've settled the matters of Watchmen and Unbreakable, it's Nolan Time.

Like many things about Nolan films, I can see where you're coming from. I don't want to seem condescending or pretentious, I think you might be missing some of the connections between events throughout the film. For example, you said Two-Face seemed too rushed and showed up too late, but Two-Face was prevalent throughout the entire movie because he was Harvey Dent. HD/TF had a wonderful downward spiral that fit well with the Joker, considering that Joker wanted to break Harvey to prove to Gotham that he could bring their noblest down to his level.



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 Post subject: Re: Favorite books/authors?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:31 pm 
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overpoweredginger wrote:
you said Two-Face seemed too rushed and showed up too late, but Two-Face was prevalent throughout the entire movie because he was Harvey Dent. HD/TF had a wonderful downward spiral that fit well with the Joker, considering that Joker wanted to break Harvey to prove to Gotham that he could bring their noblest down to his level.

The thing about Two-Face in The Dark Knight is that he's not in the movie for his own sake. He's there for the Joker. He's not even an independent villain in his own right, all his actions as Two-Face are manipulated and determined by the Joker. He's an extension of the Joker and his thesis; even the best, noblest, most admirable are corruptable. Just a really bad day away from turning criminal.


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 Post subject: Re: Favorite books/authors?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:52 pm 
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Two Face may just be an extension of The Joker in TDK but isn't that a big problem in itself? From what I gather he's the second villain that stands out in the Batman universe after The Joker. It's not a good thing to see him treated like that.

There are other problems with the film anyway such as several plot threads left underdeveloped. What was the point in that guy who knew Batman's identity and tried to blackmail him? The Joker later wants him killed but the fact that he knew Batman's identity didn't add anything to the plot and was unconnected to everything else that later happened with him. Where did he even disappear to in the sequel? The other criminals that worked with The Joker later in the film had very unclear motives and it was never made clear how The Joker obtained that all that money that he burned. The scene seemed just to be there to look cool rather than actually serve the plot.



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 Post subject: Re: Favorite books/authors?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:57 am 
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I think Scarecrow is a million times more badass. Too bad they fucked his character up in Batman Begins.


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 Post subject: Re: Favorite books/authors?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:58 am 
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I don't see why you guys are complaining about the Harvey/TF character and arc in TDK. Sure, he wasn't the primary villain but he didn't need to be. For the majority of the film he's not just a good guy, but the good guy. He wasn't an extension of the Joker in the slightest; he was very much his own character, much like Gordon, Alfred, or Rachel.

Gilgamesh wrote:
There are other problems with the film anyway such as several plot threads left underdeveloped.
Defenses in the tag.

Spoiler:
Gilgamesh wrote:
What was the point in that guy who knew Batman's identity and tried to blackmail him? The Joker later wants him killed but the fact that he knew Batman's identity didn't add anything to the plot and was unconnected to everything else that later happened with him.
The purpose of that was to set up the hospital scene between the Joker and Harvey and also establish the effect of the Joker on Gotham (the Joker caused the city to turn on itself when he said that he would blow up a hospital if Reese wasn't killed)

Gilgamesh wrote:
Where did he even disappear to in the sequel?
I don't know. Fuck Rises.

Gilgamesh wrote:
The other criminals that worked with The Joker later in the film had very unclear motives
Either fear or promises of money/power. We could presume that the incentives hinted at in the opening bank heist apply here.

Gilgamesh wrote:
it was never made clear how The Joker obtained that all that money that he burned.
The Mob paid him "half" for his work in driving off Batman and at least partially restoring them to power.

Gilgamesh wrote:
The scene seemed just to be there to look cool rather than actually serve the plot.
It also served to define the Joker, at least in terms of his motivations and goals.



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 Post subject: Re: Favorite books/authors?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:47 am 
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overpoweredginger wrote:

Spoiler:
Gilgamesh wrote:
What was the point in that guy who knew Batman's identity and tried to blackmail him? The Joker later wants him killed but the fact that he knew Batman's identity didn't add anything to the plot and was unconnected to everything else that later happened with him.
The purpose of that was to set up the hospital scene between the Joker and Harvey and also establish the effect of the Joker on Gotham (the Joker caused the city to turn on itself when he said that he would blow up a hospital if Reese wasn't killed)

Gilgamesh wrote:
Where did he even disappear to in the sequel?
I don't know. Fuck Rises.

Gilgamesh wrote:
The other criminals that worked with The Joker later in the film had very unclear motives
Either fear or promises of money/power. We could presume that the incentives hinted at in the opening bank heist apply here.

Gilgamesh wrote:
it was never made clear how The Joker obtained that all that money that he burned.
The Mob paid him "half" for his work in driving off Batman and at least partially restoring them to power.

Gilgamesh wrote:
The scene seemed just to be there to look cool rather than actually serve the plot.
It also served to define the Joker, at least in terms of his motivations and goals.


I hate dissecting posts especially with spoiler tags are used so I'm just going to reply to these in order they were posted under a spoiler tag if I must
Spoiler:
I get that about that guy but it still didn't have anything to do with him knowing Batman's identity. What happened to him afterwards? He obviously didn't die and never bothered to reveal Batman's identity afterwards. Why? It's not just a criticism of Rises.

Well yeah, but that's very vague. Joker burnt the money so why did he still have henchmen loyal to him? They weren't going to get paid and I don't see fear as being a good enough reason for them blindly following him.

Since when did the mob have that much money? From what I remember The Joker was to be paid for killing Batman and he didn't manage to do that either.

I can buy that him burning the money was to define The Joker but the money was really just a macGuffin.

I can't remember everything about the film but there were cases that required quite large suspenses of disbelief. The phone bomb managing to be inside that guy for instance. And the fact that only one guard was left to guard the Joker in his cell who was clearly too emotional to even be put in that situation.

There are also other writing lapses regarding The Joker. For someone who's an anarchist, nihilist and 'has no plan', he's an extremely organised person who clearly has everything meticulously thought out. Heath Ledger's performance of him was incredible. I certainly won't deny that, but the writing for him wasn't so great.


I don't think these issues make it a bad film but I don't think it's deserving of the hyperbolic praise it receives. Lots of action films contain similar problems as this and probably more but rarely do they ever be as highly regarded as TDK. Unlike a lot of other films, like most 80s action films for instance, TDK takes itself very seriously too. That makes them stand out all the more so. The fight scenes were poor too. There was just a few good action scenes regarding Batman's gadgets and the odd explosion of certain buildings.



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