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 Post subject: Re: Stranger Things
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:05 pm 
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Stranger Things undoubtedly has its roots in upscale white suburbia (not "White America" imhotep), but to say that it was made for white people kinda misses the point of the series. It's an homage to 80s genre schlock films, therefore it was made by people who really enjoyed those kinds of movies. It was probably marketed to Rich White PeopleTM, but if we allow marketing fags to determine artistic intent instead of the creators then art is dead and we have killed him.

laifuthegreat wrote:
To Pimp a Butterfly is unapologetically by and for Black America

A friend of mine recently informed me that everybody he knows who enjoys Kendrick Lamar is white, himself included. He lives in Atlanta as well, for the record. I'm just saying.



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 Post subject: Re: Stranger Things
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:14 pm 
hell knight
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That is entirely anecdotal. I know many black people who enjoy To Pimp a Butterfly and whose favorite artist is Kendrick Lamar. One of his songs became an anthem of thhe Black Lives Matter movement.

80% of Straight Outta Compton sold to white suburbanites; it doesn't make the subjects of the album less black. Most people in America just happen to be White.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alright_(Kendrick_Lamar_song)?wprov=sfsi1


Last edited by laifuthegreat on Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Stranger Things
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:30 pm 
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I couldn't care less about the artist's intent. When I say something is "for" a demographic it is shorthand for "these themes and archetypes are probably going to resonate most strongly with this group of people". I have no doubt that the creators were imitating the archetypes set by 80s nostalgia, and those subjects of their nostalgia were from an age barely past Blacula. That's besides the point. The archetypes are still most strongly resonant with upscale American White suburbia. I don't think it's bad, but I think it's worth pointing out, especially in a time where everyone talks about how Master of None and Fresh Off the Boat are great for Asian Americans. I also think it's interesting to juxtapost its specificity with more modern shows. It's jarring for me, someone who wasn't around during the 80s. Things have changed. I didn't say the show was bad for not appealing to everyone, but apparently my mere obervation has got everyone frothed up.


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 Post subject: Re: Stranger Things
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:05 pm 
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Eh, fair enough. I'm not the biggest fan of death of the author **** because half the time it takes bits out of context to prop up personal political garbage but hey you do you.



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 Post subject: Re: Stranger Things
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:14 pm 
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laifuthegreat wrote:
That is entirely anecdotal. I know many black people who enjoy To Pimp a Butterfly and whose favorite artist is Kendrick Lamar. One of his songs became an anthem of thhe Black Lives Matter movement.

80% of Straight Outta Compton sold to white suburbanites; it doesn't make the subjects of the album less black. Most people in America just happen to be White.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alright_(Kendrick_Lamar_song)?wprov=sfsi1



I really don't get what you're trying to say. I don't think anyone is agitated here (so you can stop reciting the "white people get defensive so quickly" narrative), imo everyone is just really baffled and wants to understand (or laugh about it). this is so alien to me. take that however you like, but i'm not american enough for whatever those posts are imho

I guess from a business standpoint, everything is targeted at privileged white people because they tend to have the money for netflix? isn't your rant (or whatever it is) a little redundant?!

also, I like to think that a good piece of art, regardless of the subject matter and aesthetics, can work for anyone if it's well made. There is no "target audience" for art. I guess black people could care less about characters in Dostoyevski's works because the characters are not black, but Crime and Punishment is about the human condition, not white people in Russia, although it uses lots of Russian history and politics as backdrop.
I love the moment in The Wire when D'Angelo Barksdale reads The Great Gatsby in prison and takes something really personal out of it. It manages to demonstrate what a good piece of art can evoke and also how similar we all are, often haunted by the same fears and conflicts. Making people care is the artist's job. Imo To Pimp a Butterfly is about people and just so happens to use black history as a reference point. I relate to it very, very much. People can relate to people who don't look like them and live other, tougher lives. I get that things are complicated in the US atm, but I do think this "black", "white", "them", "us", etc. way of thinking is what's responsible for this whole mess. There is no specific target audience for We Shall Overcome and there is no target audience for To Pimp A Butterfly. It's made for people who would listen. We Shall Overcome has become an anthem for all people, not just black people in the 60s. It's that powerful of a song. Also, I would like to think that "black people" enjoy "white culture" at this point, imho. I don't agree with your sentiment at all, but then again (and I'm not even saying this in a smug way), I'm not American.

Stranger Things is aimed at everyone who enjoyed the 80s or likes really really well made, corny 80s stuff. It's not highbrow, it doesn't want to be. It's not even really art, I guess. It's escapist 80s fun for everyone who enjoys escapist 80s fun. Imo "black people" can relate to "white people" trying to find a white boy who disappeared without a trace. I wonder if that concept sounds alien to you irl. You must know: when Jay Z does a Black Album tour in central Europe, 90% of his audience is white. And people relate to the story being told in 99 problems. It's called empathy (okay - now I'm being smug, I should end this post asap). I'm neither black nor am I American, but there is hardly a piece of art that hit me as hard as The Wire did. I cried at Dookie's fate. Of course, it's a tale of an American city, but at its core, it's just so, so human. That's what I love about it. The Wire might not have gotten the awards it deserved, but it still had a mostly white audience (considering it was an HBO exclusive) and managed to go on for 5 seasons. I'm neither Russian, nor do I live in the 19th century, nor have I murdered someone (well - I haven't been caught), but Crime and Punishment is my favourite piece of art ever. Also, aren't most people in America *not* white at this point?! [edit: no, they're not]

i'm also don't worry about what you think of the show. i like to hear people's thoughts, but i don't mind if people hate it. if you're judging it based on its target audience, knock yourself out, i don't care. i just don't understand how you decided to do a three sentence synopsis of Stranger Things and of all the things you could've said about it, you decided to dedicate one third of your post to "it's for white people tho". I was irl baffled.

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreally not getting into this any further.



"It's not even a black show." A black cast doesn't mean the show is "for black people". Imo you're doing the very thing he criticizes, you're labelling unnecessarily. You're not helping anyone by labelling Stranger Things a "white show".



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 Post subject: Re: Stranger Things
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:08 pm 
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Hahahaha I really don't understand why everyone seems to fail to grasp even the basics of what I'm saying, no matter how explicit I am.

I said earlier:

"It won't have the same effect yeah, but I can appreciate it. I've seen *enough* white American provincial tropes to understand the feeling that it evokes, and the show is at its core well written. It has the tropes and benefits from nostalgia but doesn't seem to rely on them. The characters are still likeable and the dialogue is still clever and the mystery is still compelling."

I could not have been more explicit in saying that I am not criticizing the show. Actually I guess I could have:

I LIKED THE SHOW!!!

That said, there always will be specificity. The Evil Dead posters and the Thing and all that **** helped Bego and Lura identify more with the show. On the other hand, the manner in which this show treats youth, growing up, adolescent anxiety, and most of all familial structure is entirely alien to me. That stuck out to me. A lot. It's one of the things I noticed the most. But for some reason, me pointing out is off limits to you.

The fact that everyone is "allowed" to like everything and likely can enjoy everything is irrelevant to whether or not it's worth pointing out that a show targets a demographic. If a show targets gaym3rs or women or 90s nostalgia buffs, it's valid to talk about it, and if it draws on shared cultural experiences it's also valid to talk about that.

You seem to be under the impression that I think Stranger Things is white because it's about White people. It's much deeper than that.
[quote="Bego"] Imo "black people" can relate to "white people" trying to find a white boy who disappeared without a trace. I wonder if that concept sounds alien to you irl.

I can relate to people trying to find a white boy who disappeared without a trace. I cannot relate to Nancy's suburban rebellion against her parents or everyone's concern with their place in the adolescent social hierarchy or to the malaise of being in a boring suburban wealthy household where you'll be like your conventional parents who were like their conventional parents. The show is also very much for people who grew up watching 80s movies and I also cannot relate to any of those references. People relate to art by bits and pieces according to their experience, and certain groups of people are going to have more or less similar experiences. Me pointing out that Stranger Things draws on archetypes of White suburban living is not me saying that nobody else can like it. I am saying that some people are predisposed to like it more.

The proposal that To Pimp a Butterfly is not at some level about being Black in America is patently ridiculous, and I think you know that. Your whole post suggests a naive understanding of racial history and relations in America, and I don't say that to be condescending either. Colorblindness, empirically speaking does not work and the solution to racial issues is not pretending that race doesn't exist. Your incredulity with what I said seems to be the fact that it reinforces that there is a White America and a non-White America with two sets of different experiences. Well there is.

I also wonder if me talking about Master of None or Fresh Off the Boat being uniquely for immigrants would receive the same kind of inflamed response, or if your problem is me pointing out the specificity to a more "conventional" culture.

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 Post subject: Re: Stranger Things
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:36 pm 
Audrey Horne
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ahah honestly stopped reading after the first paragraph. i did get that you like the show, you know. i kust said that i wouldnt mind if you didnt, for whatever reason.

anyway, nice caps, bye



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 Post subject: Re: Stranger Things
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:43 pm 
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[quote="Begogian"]there is no target audience for To Pimp A Butterfly.

This is irl bewildering to me. Yes, there are elements and personal struggles in it that everyone can connect with. But to deny that it is also about being black in America sounds like absolute lunacy and a deliberate attempt to ignore the statistical reality of racial issues.

Spoiler:
Been feeling this way since I was 16, came to my senses
You never liked us anyway, **** your friendship, I meant it
I'm African-American, I'm African
I'm black as the moon, heritage of a small village
Pardon my residence
Came from the bottom of mankind
My hair is nappy, my **** is big, my nose is round and wide
You hate me don't you?
You hate my people, your plan is to terminate my culture
You're fuckin' evil I want you to recognize that I'm a proud monkey


Dark as the midnight hour or bright as the mornin' sun
Give a **** about your complexion, I know what the Germans done
Sneak (dissin')
Sneak me through the back window, I'm a good field *****
I made a flower for you outta cotton just to chill with you
You know I'd go the distance, you know I'm ten toes down
Even if master listenin', cover your ears, he 'bout to mention

Let me talk my Stu Scott, 'scuse me on my 2pac
Keep your head up, when did you stop? Love and die
Color of your skin, color of your eyes
That's the real blues, baby, like you met Jay's baby
You blew me away, you think more beauty in blue green and grey
All my Solomon up north, 12 years a slave
12 years of age, thinkin' my shade too dark
I love myself, I no longer need Cupid
And forcin' my dark side like a young George Lucas
Light don't mean you smart, bein' dark don't make you stupid
And frame of mind for them bustas, ain't talkin' "Woohah!"
Need a paradox for the pair of dots they tutored
Like two ties, L-L, you lose two times
If you don't see you beautiful in your complexion
It ain't complex to put it in context
Find the air beneath the kite, that's the context
Yeah, baby, I'm conscious, ain't no contest
If you like it, I love it, all your earth tones been blessed
Ain't no stress, jigga boos wanna be
I ain't talkin' Jay, I ain't talkin' Bey
I'm talkin' days we got school watchin' movie screens
And spike yourself esteem
The new James Bond gon' be black as me
Black as brown, hazelnut, cinnamon, black tea
And it's all beautiful to me
Call your brothers magnificent, call all the sisters queens
We all on the same team, blues and pirus, no colors ain't a thing


Maybe this isn't the place for it, but this absurd colorblindness is irl harmful.

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 Post subject: Re: Stranger Things
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:47 pm 
hell knight
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Begogian wrote:
ahah honestly stopped reading after the first paragraph. i did get that you like the show, you know. i kust said that i wouldnt mind if you didnt, for whatever reason.

anyway, nice caps, bye

You're not obligated to continue speaking, but if you're going to throw something out there and then immediately stick your head in the sand and avoid reading any response, you might as well have not said anything at all. There's irl no point to you having said anything, especially since it didn't seem like you were just throwing out a joke or a throwaway comment. You put in effort to typing something serious, then decided you wanted to stay in your echo chamber and refuse to acknowledge any kind of disagreement.


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 Post subject: Re: Stranger Things
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:02 pm 
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Bego is a wannabe german slav so idk how hes supposed to be triggered by that white america stuff XD



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